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Post by Sir Black Fox on Aug 8, 2006 16:34:37 GMT -5
No smoking at MDRF? Could that happen since the faire happens when a lot of dry flamable material is falling from the trees and the ground is covered in dried wood (mulch)?
The dangers of second-hand smoke in crowded pub sings or inside a closed-air merchant area?
I know folks fall on both sides of the argument but where do YOU fall? Let's discuss the idea (no personal attacks please or the responses will be edited).
I'm on the fence on this one. . . I don't smoke and don't like the smell but all of my faire friends who puff usually ask if it's OK or move downwind. I have no problem in such an open air venue but of course, this is just my opinion.
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Post by ladyneysa on Aug 9, 2006 0:06:31 GMT -5
I don't smoke and can't tolerate it much since it aggravates my asthma and allergies. However, I don't have a problem with people wanting to smoke, at fest. or anyplace else. Secondhand smoke issues aside, if they want to put that stuff in their bodies it is their choice( I'm talking LEGAL tobacco products here) If the smell or smoke bothers me I will walk away or move upwind til you're done. Outdoor smoking doesn't bother me that much. If I'm trapped indoors with smokers around, well, as long as they're in a legally designated place, there's not a whole lot I can, or would, say. I just try to avoid putting myself in those situations, and if I can't, I always keep my inhaler handy. Maybe I'm just lucky, but in my experience, most smokers I've ever been around really do try to be courteous, for the most part.
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Post by majorchaos on Aug 9, 2006 8:46:17 GMT -5
No smoking at MDRF? Could that happen since the faire happens when a lot of dry flamable material is falling from the trees and the ground is covered in dried wood (mulch)? Doubtful. Even if there were a "no fire warning" or some such thing. Most of the clothing vendors usually ask anyone smoking to not go into the store. The pubs, they're all open air, so most likely, there won't be any rule put into place. I don't care for the smell of cigarette smoke, especially second hand, like on clothing, nor most cigar smoke. If I can smell the smoke afterwards from five feet away (or more), that's a disgusting smell. However, in the outdoors, it's usually not as noticable. I do like a decent cigar once in a while and I like most pipe smoke, too. It's usually more pleasant.
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Post by banalbannach on Aug 9, 2006 10:43:30 GMT -5
Oy! One of my favorite soap box (rant) subjects, where to start. Many smokers, not all, but many are extremely inconsiderate of those around them. It's hard enough on the lungs to bring home a cup of fair dust in my lungs each weekend and the smoke just makes it worse. I'd prefer not to have to inhale the equivalent of a pack a day, but unfortunately the fair puts my favorite shows in the heaviest drinking/smoking areas (White Hart and Dragon Inn). I've had people ask to share a table and I usually say fine as long as you don't smoke (I've usually already moved the ash tray to another table). A good portion of the time they settle in and then light right up then go get an ash tray. Add in the heavy drinking atmosphere at fair and the situation gets worse. There have been many times when I've almost been burned by drunk smokers. Last year alone I personally had to put out 4 small fires that had been started by people throwing their butts into leaves and that doesn't include the many cigarettes that they left smoldering. Last but not least cigarette smoke stinks, it makes my clothes stink, my hair stink and the smoker stink. I'd rather have teeth drilled than think about kissing a smoker (shudder). It's even worse if it's cigar smoke, I can smell cigar smoke from clear across the White Hart area, so don't tell me it shouldn't bother me cause it's "outside". Either there's no breeze and the smoke from the chimney next to me goes nowhere or the breeze brings it to me from the person across the pub.
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Post by Empresa Anna on Aug 9, 2006 11:16:23 GMT -5
I agree with all of the above. I'm thinking it would be nice if the MDRF did the theme park rule... you know only in certain areas of the festival that are farther away from the rest of more crowded areas of the festival. Like near the Beer Garden, or somewhere they would definitely have to go out of their way. I can't even count how many times my husband and I have had to move our daughter out of the White Hart while the Pyrates were playing just because of the amount of smoke. Its a family place too.
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Post by tigerlily on Aug 9, 2006 13:07:04 GMT -5
Well, I guess I'll post the unpopular reply. What a way to get started on this site, huh? Ah well...both my fiance and I smoke on occasion...he, a pipe and small cigars and me, my little, flavored lady cigars. It's something we do only on special occasions or social functions...at faire, it usually adds up to about 2-3 a day for each of us. However, we try to be courteous. When we're in close quarters (say, jammed up next to someone at the Jousting arena or at a show of some sort) we abstain. We wait until we can have a pint (or two) and meander along a less traveled area. We do not smoke when we got into any of the vendors structures. I would hate to see all smoking outlawed there, but wouldn't be surprised as many states are now trying to do to smoking what Prohibition did to alcohol. I also would hate to have to be shuffled off to a smoking only area, but I guess if that would be the only way that it could be handled, then I'd rather see that than all smoking outlawed altogether. I think it's a shame that folks can't be more considerate and that some folks (like us) are penalized for the shortcomings of some rude folk. Just my 2 cents' worth...for what it's worth (probably not even the 2 cents!) Peace.
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Post by chase on Aug 9, 2006 18:58:48 GMT -5
I don't smoke. That said, the majority of the noticable smoking happens in the pub areas at faire. I feel that it is a given when you go to a bar/pub/tavern that there will be alcohol and smoking and most likely loud noise. While I understand that smoking is a health hazard that some people cannot be around, the majority of the faire is open venues where you can watch shows or shop without breathing in clouds of smoke. If I'm at a stage and someone ignores all the empty benches and sits down right next to me to smoke, I ask them to scoot down.. but if I'm in a crowded bar, I view it as my choice to be there, knowing that there are people smoking.
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Post by Ana on Aug 10, 2006 12:36:00 GMT -5
Smoking within merchant areas should be a definite no-no (after all, the potential for something getting scorched (or in the case of crowded clothing shops, on fire) is rather too great, if you ask me.
Out on the walkways and such, it's not such a big deal, I suppose, though I personally despise cigarette smoke and hate having to inhale it and wouldn't mind at all if smoking wasn't allowed in the joust arena/various stages/pubs.
Though Black Fox, you did make a good point way up there about falling, crumbling plant matter, that could be worrisome (and I never really thought about it before).
Plus cigarette butts on the ground just make it look ugly and dirty. And less "Renaissance-y".
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Post by Amras on Aug 11, 2006 8:17:29 GMT -5
Not a cigarette smoker, but do, on occasion, enjoy a good cigar or pipe (tobaco only)...Usually don't imbibe at faire, though. If I do, I always ask if anyone minds,and try to keep the smoke downwind...that being said, I do think that, as tobaco is a legal substance, it should be allowed, but perhaps in designated smoking areas only, even outdoors. Cigarettes, as well as cigars and pipes, have the potential to smell like the lit hind end of a dead rhinoceros, and are best kept at a distance from non-smokers.
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Post by Sir Black Fox on Aug 11, 2006 8:22:37 GMT -5
I do think that, as tobaco is a legal substance, it should be allowed, but perhaps in designated smoking areas only, even outdoors. That's a wonderful idea. Create a smoker's corral outside the gate maybe down near the employee entrance road. With that being said, MDRF would have to A) move the White Hart to the front of the festival grounds or B) set up some sort of First Aid station at the front gate to handle the winded smokers running back and forth! LOL
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Post by chelle on Aug 11, 2006 15:49:52 GMT -5
*thwaps Fox on the noggin* I do think that, as tobaco is a legal substance, it should be allowed, but perhaps in designated smoking areas only, even outdoors. That's a wonderful idea. Create a smoker's corral outside the gate maybe down near the employee entrance road. With that being said, MDRF would have to A) move the White Hart to the front of the festival grounds or B) set up some sort of First Aid station at the front gate to handle the winded smokers running back and forth! LOL
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Post by willpaisley on Aug 15, 2006 19:37:04 GMT -5
I agree with all of the above. I'm thinking it would be nice if the MDRF did the theme park rule... you know only in certain areas of the festival that are farther away from the rest of more crowded areas of the festival. Like near the Beer Garden, or somewhere they would definitely have to go out of their way. I can't even count how many times my husband and I have had to move our daughter out of the White Hart while the Pyrates were playing just because of the amount of smoke. Its a family place too. At the risk of being contrary, the White Hart is not a family place. It's a bar. If you want to bring children in there, that's your decision, but neither the entertainment nor the refreshments are designed with children in mind. There are several baudy acts who can only perform at the White Hart and other taverns, because the content of their acts are not family friendly. Even when performing in the White Hart, the O'Danny Girls will often make an announcement that a) don't let your kids see the show, unless you want to hurt them and b) if you do let them see the show, remember you brought them into a bar. I bring this up because of a very vivid memory I have of faire several years ago; a couple brought their two children into the White Hart from the food court because there were picnic tables to sit at and eat. They're just getting situated when Christophe the Insulter takes the stage. The first sentence out of his mouth is something along the lines of "This is an ode to ..... your balls". Grab, grab, tuck this under one arm, that under the other, and the parents practically sprint out of the place, with their kids in tow. Yes, the faire welcomes families and lots of space for them. The taverns are not, as a general rule, part of that family space.
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pynchosalt
Ren Geek
But why is the rum gone?
Posts: 88
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Post by pynchosalt on Aug 16, 2006 20:04:38 GMT -5
My 16-year-old assures me they hear far worse at school. Even Shakespeare can be a little bawdy. As for smoking, just don't flick your ashes in my drink or on my garb.
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Post by bludrgnlady on Aug 17, 2006 16:21:29 GMT -5
Thought I would put my two pence in to represent the last few remaining people who smoke. Personally I have always been a very considerate smoker; I know that everyone does not enjoy the smell of smoke, frankly neither do I but darn it is hard to quit. Especially throw in some alcohol and that need increases 10 fold. I try to stay down wind and if I notice kids around I will usually try to move. That being said I would be bummed if they totally did away with it, corralling us to one area may be an alternative with smoking and nonsmoking sections within the bars, but in a way I don't completly agree with that as well because I feel like such a spectacle like everyone is saying look at those evil smokers, they are outcasts . Really I am a nice person with a habit that not everyone agrees with. I personally don't like the smell of exhaust coming out cars and car exhaust is much more harmful to people's health but I don't think they will ever try to outlaw driving. I just think that a bit of understanding and courtesy needs to be had by all because this is such a controversal subject, no one's opinion is necessarily better than the other. That is my two pence.
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Post by tigerlily on Aug 17, 2006 17:28:15 GMT -5
To address both Will and Bluedragnlady...first, I agree with Will. The MDRF has even come up with a handy little listing of what shows are and aren't "kid" or "family" friendly (don't ask me where to get it or whatever...we bumped into a couple last season who pulled this nifty little sheet out showing the "family" shows vs. the more bawdy "adult" ones....)...I think it might even be something that is in the program for the season...a little disclaimer sort of thingy. There are plenty of things for kids and families to do at the faire, so it's not like they'll be left out of things if they don't get to attend a show at the White Hart. The White Hart IS a bar and I get very peeved whenever I find myself in a bar and see people bringing children in...to an adult show, to hear a band, etc....and then get a bad attitude regarding smoking or the loudness of conversations or music. I wouldn't go to a playground and complain that the jungle gym was too small...it's not MEANT for adults! If a parent is open minded enough to have their child in a bar, exposing them to drinking, dancing, etc., then there are certain things that go along with that environment. We shouldn't try to inflict our wills on others, just 'cause we can...which leads me to Bluedragonlady's post....
I am an occasional smoker and so is my fiance....we smoke the occasional cigar (and he, his pipe)...we try to be considerate...as we all know, a lot of people aren't, but I've found that if I am not smoking at the time, I will move away from where the smoke is (if possible) or adopt the same attitude I do where children are around...I know that if I go into a bar-like atmosphere, there are gonna be certain elements there that I will have to endure, like smoking. If I don't want to be exposed to the smoke, then I won't go into those venues. I wouldn't go into a smoke filled venue and then ask someone to put out their cigs. When I am the smoker, like Bluedrgnldy...I try to keep a good distance away from folks, move so that the smoke won't hit others in the face, etc. I don't particularly like smoke in my face either, even though I do sometimes smoke, so I try to be aware of the environment around me.
I love the fact that the MDRF is an all-inclusive atmosphere...kids, families, singles, couples, bawdy, wholesome, young, old, all races, genders, sexual orientations...everyone is welcome there...I'd hate to have to corral a certain faction of the guests due to the wishes of others...what comes next? Corralling off those who want to drink and have "drinking only" designations, so that we won't expose drinking to those who might be averse to it or who might not want their children witnessing drinking of alcoholic beverages? It's a slippery slope, folks...my motto...let's all be considerate of each other and things should go fine...
Peace...(stepping off my soapbox now...)
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sue
Playtron-Wannabe
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Post by sue on Sept 1, 2006 10:12:49 GMT -5
Ah, just like me to make my first post in a potentially controversial topic. Though, so far it's been tame, and I congratulate everyone on that! And now on to my humble opinion.
I'm not a smoker. However, I don't mind catching an occasional whiff of secondhand smoke, especially in an outdoor setting. I must say that I haven't noticed the smoking at the faire. I mean, I see it, sure. But I've never had any problems with it, as most people are usually pretty conscientious about where they exhale and where the hold their cigarettes and how they ash.
Then again, I usually hang out at the White Hart. I expect people to be smoking there, as it's a bar/tavern. On that note, I'll agree with what some others have already said: The taverns are not really the best place for people to bring their young children. If there is an act there that you think your children will enjoy, chances are they'll be playing later at a more children-friendly stage.
So yeah, I agree that if anything DOES happen, it would be to have special smoking areas set aside. But overall, I don't mind it too much and in a way, it sort of adds to the ambiance of the place! Especially the cloves and pipe smoke, which I like!
Oh, and a little personal note for the smokers out there... PLEASE make sure you extinguish your cigarettes properly. As I was walking across the parking lot opening weekend, I came across a cigarette butt that was still smoldering. A lot!! And up until now it had been very dry so it was a huge fire hazard. Smoke if you want, just don't burn the place down. Thanks!
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Post by Lady Ravenwolves on Sept 5, 2006 17:44:21 GMT -5
I would just like people to follow the posted signs (regarding any policy - but mainly smoking) Our Morning Ravenwolves has Cystic Fibrosis which is primarily a lung disease and smoke is not in her best interest - even outside. When it's right there next to her - it isn't good and leads to double the 45 minutes of treatments she does each day. I myself expect smoking at the pubs which is why you will rarely see me and mine there... however when we are sitting at a table in the food area by the White Hart (the big center place, more towards the food - kwim?) and have a person right besides us smoking it really can be a problem. Yes we are outside - but why smoke right there while kids and people are eating? I don't understand. I come from a family of smokers and they didn't do it while eating... I can understand at Pubs. Not a problem but not in food areas where we are all close eating and trying to breathe.
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Post by tigerlily on Sept 5, 2006 18:43:12 GMT -5
K and I found ourselves on Labor Day wanting to light up a little cigar. We were near the front (?) of the White Hart...a Rogues show was underway. Even though we consider ourselves respectful smokers (not blowing into peoples' faces, and no, we don't want it around when we're eating, either), I suddenly got all paranoid...particularly because of this topic here on the board. I looked around to see if any children were nearby, as folks tend to get more upset regarding smoking around their young'uns...yep, sure enough, there was a sleeping baby in a stroller right nearby the stage (yep, sleeping through the Rogues!), to the right. I began to look around for a place to safely light up....the pub was filled to the brim, so there was no going inside anyway in order to find a seat. We circled the pub and finally found a place, near one of the stucco walls, to the LEFT of the stage, on the OUTSIDE of the pub, where we could sit on the wall (is that against some sort of rule...I was the only one who sat, actually) and smoke...and I still felt all weird. I fully understand when there is a health condition that would be aggravated by the smoke...and I do want to be respectful...but it's interesting that for the first time, I started to feel like a criminal. I know it's not good for us and nothing we need (we are only occasional, social smokers...an occasional pipe or cigar, like Amras said), so I guess we might wind up giving it up at Faire...but I must admit that I wish that we weren't put into the position. It's all still good, however.
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brunhilde
PLAYTRON!
Even valkyries can be pirates or faeries sometimes!
Posts: 17
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Post by brunhilde on Sept 6, 2006 11:01:59 GMT -5
I wish more smokers were considerate... then I wouldn't have to dislike them so much. On Opening Day it seemed we couldn't go anywhere without smokers having their smoke blowing in our direction. During past years I was almost burned a few times by drunks around the pubs(to the point I felt the hot butt on my skin, but luckily it didn't leave a mark). I also had people almost burn my garb since they weren't being careful. I understand that people will be smoking in the pubs... and we avoided them. What I'm complaing about is people standing right at the back of the benches lighting up. This happened at every show we were at... and it always happened after the show had already started. With a preschooler and a baby it's not easy to just move to another row after the show's already started. My husband and I have mild smoke allergies and the baby is not to be around smoke at all due to being in the NICU with Respiratory Distress Syndrome for his first 2 weeks of life. While I understand that people want/need to smoke, but I think it should be kept to the pubs and special smoking areas.
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Post by jenniferlynn on Sept 8, 2006 6:40:46 GMT -5
Ok... I'm a smoker ~ that's right, hurl all your rotted fruit and insults this way ;D ~ I hate it, it's gross, disgusting; it makes me stink and daggone it, it's freakin' expensive!!! so if not by the end of the year, as my new year's resolution, I'm done with it... does help keepin' the weight off tho...
anyways... I've scanned the posts; and the non-smokers really don't want smokers anywhere near them and the smokers are having a time trying not to piss anyone off with their habit... Yes as smokers, we understand there are some out there that have health issues ~ but if you don't say something, we aren't going to know... Most of us will move and apologize as soon as we are told; really we will...
And as smokers, we do have a kind of responsibility to be as curteous as we can... Yeah, we're in a bar (whether it be the White Hart or the Dragon... whatever bar) and families are going to wander in... However, in the smokers' defense - if you don't want to be in the smoke and there's a show at the bar you want to see; check them out at one of the other stages if smoke is an issue for you n' yours...
Ok I've rambled long enough...
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Post by willpaisley on Sept 8, 2006 9:32:31 GMT -5
~ but if you don't say something, we aren't going to know... Most of us will move and apologize as soon as we are told; really we will...
That should be tattooed on the forehead of everyone at faire, twice - once normally, and again in mirror writing so we/they can read it at home after faire. This goes for all manner of things at faire - if you have a problem with something or someone, instead of immediately thinking about complaining to a) your friends, b) a mutual friend, c) someobdy on cast, d) somebody in management, e) LJ or f) AFR, consider talking to the person you actually have a problem with. Most people aren't completely selfish jerks or malevolent monsters, if for no other reason that it requires too much energy. ;D
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Post by tigerlily on Sept 8, 2006 9:36:02 GMT -5
~ but if you don't say something, we aren't going to know... Most of us will move and apologize as soon as we are told; really we will...
That should be tattooed on the forehead of everyone at faire, twice - once normally, and again in mirror writing so we/they can read it at home after faire. This goes for all manner of things at faire - if you have a problem with something or someone, instead of immediately thinking about complaining to a) your friends, b) a mutual friend, c) someobdy on cast, d) somebody in management, e) LJ or f) AFR, consider talking to the person you actually have a problem with. Most people aren't completely selfish jerks or malevolent monsters, if for no other reason that it requires too much energy. ;D HERE, HERE!!
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Post by tigerlily on Sept 8, 2006 9:49:08 GMT -5
Ok... I'm a smoker ~ that's right, hurl all your rotted fruit and insults this way ;D ~ I hate it, it's gross, disgusting; it makes me stink and daggone it, it's freakin' expensive!!! so if not by the end of the year, as my new year's resolution, I'm done with it... does help keepin' the weight off tho...
anyways... I've scanned the posts; and the non-smokers really don't want smokers anywhere near them and the smokers are having a time trying not to piss anyone off with their habit... Yes as smokers, we understand there are some out there that have health issues ~ but if you don't say something, we aren't going to know... Most of us will move and apologize as soon as we are told; really we will...
And as smokers, we do have a kind of responsibility to be as curteous as we can... Yeah, we're in a bar (whether it be the White Hart or the Dragon... whatever bar) and families are going to wander in... However, in the smokers' defense - if you don't want to be in the smoke and there's a show at the bar you want to see; check them out at one of the other stages if smoke is an issue for you n' yours...
Ok I've rambled long enough... Good points, Jen...for fear of being controversial (and disliked) here (and elsewhere), I will refrain from getting on my soapbox about how smoking has become the newest, latest evil that many are trying to ban (some states want it gone from EVERYWHERE!) with the reasoning being it infringes on the rights of non-smokers to breathe clean air...of course, no one looks at the other side of the coin and how smokers' rights are being infringed upon...or other areas where peoples' rights are being infringed upon (nope, not going there...oops, caught my right foot and tongue climbing up onto that danged soapbox...down girl, down!) Out of the 4 days that I've been to faire this season, I have only smoked once, so that demonstrates how little I do smoke...BUT I want to have that right, I suppose. Your point about finding other venues (less smoking) for various shows is an excellent one! I don't want to be judged based upon bad experiences that others have had with inconsiderate smokers. I'm really a pretty nice person, as are most people that I know who do smoke. There are "bad apples" in every crowd...I've had bad experiences with people from all walks of life...and I've seen both good and bad behavior from every corner... race, lifestyle, sexual orientation, size, appearance, religion, etc. The key word here is "Respect" and I think it's incumbant upon ALL of us to be respectful to everyone else, including ourselves. I don't think respect is something one group owes to another...we all owe it to each other. My 2 cents' worth, at any rate...have a lovely day! I'm heading off to Annapolis this afternoon...YAY!!
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Post by Ana on Sept 8, 2006 10:01:46 GMT -5
I'm heading off to Annapolis this afternoon...YAY!! Yeah, just replying so I can say: Have fun! I adore Annapolis!
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Post by tigerlily on Sept 8, 2006 10:06:04 GMT -5
I'm heading off to Annapolis this afternoon...YAY!! Yeah, just replying so I can say: Have fun! I adore Annapolis! Hi back atcha! I'm sure we'll be bumping into each other this weekend, for sure! Coming to the wedding? No pressure, just hope to see you wherever.
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Post by Ana on Sept 8, 2006 10:07:29 GMT -5
Yeah, just replying so I can say: Have fun! I adore Annapolis! Hi back atcha! I'm sure we'll be bumping into each other this weekend, for sure! Coming to the wedding? No pressure, just hope to see you wherever. Definitely planning on coming to the wedding and I may have a friend with me.
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Post by Dammiana on Sept 8, 2006 10:11:17 GMT -5
*peeks out* Since everyone else has an opinion...
I'm not a smoker. Never have been. I have enough unhealthy and expensive habits, I don't need another one. Plus, I've always been a bit protective of the old vocal chords.
To be honest, I spend time enough at the pubs and whatnot and smokers have not been an issue for me, especially this year. The vast majority of venues at faire, White Hart included, are in an open-air setting, there's a great deal of ventilation. Moving just a few steps away from a smoker is probably more than enough in many cases, as long as you're not downwind.
And I'd have to agree, if you're having an issue with a smoker, just politely ask them to finish it off to the side. Offer to save their place if it's at a busy show or something, because it's always nice to have a compromise. The vast majority of smokers I know would be more than happy to help you out.
*goes back to hiding*
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Post by Amras on Sept 8, 2006 10:22:50 GMT -5
Speaking as an occasional pipe/cigar smoker, I must bring up one interesting stat...smokers cannot really represent themselves completely as a shrinking minority...though smoking among adults is decreasing, the numbers show that smoking among teenagers, as well as college students, is actually on the rise again, the numbers growing since the 1990s. Only time will tell if the actual rate of smoking activity in this demographic group remains constant through their adult years.
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brunhilde
PLAYTRON!
Even valkyries can be pirates or faeries sometimes!
Posts: 17
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Post by brunhilde on Sept 8, 2006 14:59:06 GMT -5
I wanted to add that I don't immediately hate someone just because they smoke... I've had many friends who've smoked over the years.. however... they were all of the considerate variety.
I also agree that smokers have rights too, but when I specifically avoid the major smoking venues only to have to deal with smoke at non pub stages(or get stuck behind smokers when walking in a crowd) my patience gets really thin. Yes, I could have asked them to stop, but it's hard for me since I've had bad reactions when I've politely asked smokers to refrain/move elsewhere in the past(to the point they were cursing me out for daring to infere with their rights).
I try to be respectful, but when someone lights up like a row away from my baby... my mad momma bear instinct comes out. Since they were smoking right among their little ones I figure they didn't care that other people wouldn't want their little ones breathing it.
I'm hoping when we're at faire in two weeks we'll have a better experience. If not I'll have to try the asking them to move thing... and if they're nasty I'll let them make a fool out of themselves.
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Post by Mongo on Sept 8, 2006 18:03:25 GMT -5
Mongo no like smoke unless pig roasting over it.
Mongo also believe man have right to shorten life by as many years as wants to. Every one quit smoking sooner or later.
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